Assalamu aleikum, my sisters. I've been asked about what led to my conversion to Islam. Let me tell you, it wasn't an easy decision! It took a lot of praying, thinking, and studying -- and a lot of time. I had to be willing to let my previous understanding of God, Christianity, and Islam be put to the test, and to accept the results with an open mind and heart. Please keep in mind that these are my personal experiences and opinions, and that my interpretation of things may often differ from yours. I do not intend to cause any offense to anyone or say anything against Christianity, but merely to give you all a glimpse into my personal journey.
Let's rewind back to spring 2009. As a previously life-long Christian, I never thought much about my faith or the reasons that I believed the things I did. Religion had never been a major interest or priority in my life. Not that I was indifferent to it. I just had that whole "young and invincible" mindset. You all know the one I'm talking about. The one where you think you'll live forever. The soul, religion, and what comes after death just weren't things I ever thought much about.
My interest in religion began after I read a Spanish article on the condition of women in Islam, followed by an article from the same site on the hijab. I was intrigued by the concept of covering up for God, and that such covering was an exterior expression of an internal state of modesty and purity. The idea that covering up like that was not really encouraged until a woman had achieved this internal purity was also interesting, and ran counter to what I'd always heard about women being forced to cover by their husbands, fathers, and brothers (and that was if I heard anything about it at all). I had never thought about Islam or Muslims before. Though I knew virtually nothing about Islam, I knew that my dad's assertion that Muslims worshiped Muhammad (PBUH) and not God couldn't be right. Also, having come of age in post-9/11 America, I wanted to see for myself what all the fuss was about.
This branched off initially as in interest in Muslim women. I read countless articles, blog posts, and books about hijab and the rights of women in Islam. I won't repeat any of that here, since I know a lot of you know just as much, if not more, on these topics than I do. Suffice it to say, I was pleasantly surprised by what I found. My interest didn't expand out of that small area for several months. Because of what I'd read about hijab and the fact that, historically, Christian women also covered, I branched out into learning about modern-day Christian head covering and adopted the practice myself. (For those of you who are interested but tired of reading books by men on the topic, I recommend Michelle Barnes McClendon's excellent book "Life as a Prayer: Recapturing the Wind of Headcovering".)
As time went on, I began reading more. Books about the history of Islam, current Muslim beliefs and practices, the different groups within Islam, guides on how best to study the Qur'an, books that compared Islam and Christianity (with virtually all of them, to my annoyance and frustration, leaning towards one or another of them, never being truly impartial and scholarly), and, of course, the Qur'an. But wait! There's more. In my study of Islam, for the first time I became genuinely curious about Christianity, and just a little annoyed at the assertions I found everywhere that the Bible was a "corrupted" (altered) text. Rather than take the word of a preacher as I'd always done in the past, I began to study and learn about Christianity for myself. I read about its history and that of the Bible, compared verses from several different translations of the Bible, and generally searched for answers to my questions.
One of my first questions was:
Why did God keep the Qur'an from being changed, but not the Bible or the Torah?
In my mind, such a thing implied that God was incapable of preventing changes (whether deliberate or accidental) to the earlier books. The idea that God couldn't do something was (and remains) utterly foreign to me. As I read about the history of the Bible, I learned that it wasn't originally one or two books, but dozens of separate books pieced together and decided upon as the Christian scripture in council several hundred years after Jesus (PBUH) preached his message. So what did Christians follow before they had the Bible to tell them what to believe? (I must add that I was also amazed at the sheer variety of belief just within the first 200 years of Christianity. Some sects say Jesus was never crucified, others say he never died at all, and others say he WASN'T the Son of God! Nevertheless, they all claimed to be Christian.) Many of the books they used are now contained in the Apocrypha, floating around out there individually, or lost to time and burning. I still haven't found a satisfactory answer to this question, but I'll keep looking.
From there, I began to wonder other things, such as:
What was Jesus' (PBUH) true role in all this?
The Bible, quite frankly, confused me on this topic. It never gave what I considered to be a definite "I am God" answer. In two of the three translations I have with me here, one of the verses that could be used as answer for this question is Matthew 27:11: "Jesus stood before the Roman governor, who questioned him. "Are you the king of the Jews?" he asked. "So you say," answered Jesus." The verse is virtually identical in Luke 23:3-4. Another translation says "You have said it" as Jesus' response. Or, another popular one, Matthew 3:17: "Then a voice said from heaven: "This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased."
Once again, it doesn't outright say that Jesus is God. I knew from my studies that the Jews at that time would not have interpreted "Son of God" to mean literally God's son, but that he was a holy man. Jesus was not the only person in the Bible to be called "Son" by God. Adam and, if I remember correctly, Saul, and others whose names currently slip my mind, were also called the son of God.
Jesus called himself "the Son of Man" in Matthew 16:13, but not God. A couple of verses down, Peter says "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus says "Good for you! For this truth did not come to you from any human being, but it was given to you directly by my Father in heaven." But go a couple of verses farther down: (v. 20) "Then Jesus ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah." Messiah, I found, simply meant "the anointed one", as did "Christ" in Greek. Jesus wasn't the only one to be anointed as a holy man; rabbis were also, in the temple. *sigh* So, once again, nothing for sure.
The Qur'an, on the other hand, makes it clear in many verses who Jesus was:
"O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of God and the fulfillment of His word to Mary and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say: “Trinity.” Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and the earth; and God is enough as a Caretaker." 4:171
"The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate." 5:75
"He was no more than a servant whom We blessed, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel." 43:59
Nothing confusing about that answer.
Question number 2: What happens after death to all the people who aren't Christian?
According to what I'd always been taught, you had to be a Christian to go to heaven. That's it. Oh, but wait! God has a covenant with the Jews, so they're okay, too. My reaction: HUH???? For me, this is quite possibly the biggest contradiction of belief. And what about all the people since the dawn of humanity who weren't Jews or Christians? What about all the Muslims in the last 1,500-ish years? Why would it be okay to be a monotheist Jew but not a monotheist Muslim? A loving, just God wouldn't consign the majority of the world's population over the course of history to Hell, for not being born a Jew or, later, a Christian.
Luke 10:25-28: "What must I do to receive eternal life?" Jesus answered him, "What do the Scriptures say? How do you interpret them?" The man answered "Love the Lord your God with all your heart,with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and Love your neighbor as you love yourself." "You are right," Jesus replied; "do this and you will live."
Says nothing about having to be a Jew or Christian.
2:62 "Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes (Christians), and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve."
This is the loving, just God that I believe in. This is one of the things that most brought me to Islam. And it's not that Him accepting Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others who believe in Him is a wide, easy road. The requirements are basically the same: Love and obey God and be kind to others. It's a narrow path, just as Jesus said.
To be continued...
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Thanks for sharing. So glad you found your path.
ReplyDeleteOne of the questions that led you to Islam was what happens to everyone who isn't Christian, yes? But what happens to all the people who die who aren't Muslim? Christians, to my understanding, are in trouble because, if Islam is correct, most of us are technically polytheists, even if we don't realize it. I was told that shirk, associating others with God, is one of the sins that makes hell permanent for you. Even though we may love God, and obey as best we understand, and love our fellow men, we'll still be damned because we believed incorrectly. Or am I missing something?
ReplyDeleteI've heard that verse including Christians is only good for Unitarian ones which excludes quite a number of us (most of us?) and damns us to eternal hell. I've also seen Muslims say that Muslin men should not marry Trinitarian Christians because the ones Muhammad meant at that time were the ones who did not believe Jesus is God.
ReplyDeleteSo only Unitarian Christians are good enough to marry for Muslim men and only Unitarian Christians will possibly make it to heaven.
That's what I've learned from Muslims on blogs. But I really enjoyed reading YOUR views.
Thanks for sharing your story!
LK: Thank you! I hope you find yours. :)
ReplyDeleteAmber: Yep. But that also applies in the reverse: what happens to everyone who isn't Muslim? For me, I think that God forgives all sins provided that you repent honestly. But, like the verses say, God knows best and He will judge each of us. He knows what's in our hearts. Frankly, I doubt God will issue a massive smack-down on Judgment Day to people who love Him and try their best to obey Him, be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, or whatever else He decides is acceptable.
Susanne: I say that's a load of baloney. It says Christians. As far as I'm concerned, that means all Christians. Christians (in the majority) were believing in Jesus (PBUH) as the Son of God by the time the Qur'an was revealed. Like I told Amber, I think God will judge us each based upon what is in our hearts. If we love Him and strive to obey Him to the utmost of our abilities, we can't go wrong. :)
But we can't repent if we don't know it's a sin, right?
ReplyDeleteI get that you believe that we God's not going to kick everyone who didn't answer the puzzle 100% correctly to the curb, but that's very counter to the main stream beliefs of both Christianity and Islam and while I like it because it speaks more to God's mercy than anything else, it doesn't mesh with what we get from the religious texts which are supposed to have come from God Himself. So are those parts incorrect?
Amber: Honestly, we just have to do the best we can to discern the truth. I think God would agree that all this can be highly confusing. I'm not really a mainstream-type of person, lol. ^_^ I'm definitely in the minority of Muslim groups, lol. Everybody wants to be "right", but only God really knows what that is. Honestly, that's why Luke 10:25-28 was really my tipping point. Because it's simple and not bogged down in everything that people have added to religion. Love God and love your neighbor, and you will live.
ReplyDeleteYou rebel you! ;P
ReplyDeleteIt's one of the things that makes me despair of organized religion, this drive to be 'right'. With everything being filtered through humans, how can we ever know we got the right message? The desire to always be absolutely right, with everyone else being wrong is just so very human.
Amber: LOL! Yeah, I really am, I guess. ^_^ And you're right. That's why I got so annoyed at the Big Two (Sunni/Shia) while trying to figure this out. But taking the hadith out of the equation eliminated virtually every problem I had seeing Islam as my potential religion. And that's why I keep it simple. :)
ReplyDeleteWhat about people who can't find it in themselves to believe in God? They wouldn't seem to be included but is that fair?
ReplyDeleteSarah: I personally can't see someone NOT believing in God. All I have to do to remind myself is walk outside at night and look up at the stars. God IS, and it's more real to me at that moment than during the day.
ReplyDeleteBut, God says that they will come to know the truth. I wish that all the good people could go to paradise, regardless of their faith or lack thereof. But it doesn't work that way, unfortunately.
It's not so much a matter of fair here, I think. If people can't or won't believe in God, then I doubt they worry much about what happens after death. Most people I know who deny the existence of God think we die and that's the end.
We'll all find out one day. Peace.
Of course, people who don't believe in God wouldn't worry about going to hell. But according to some religions they will go to hell anyway, no?
ReplyDeleteIt seems that belief in God is natural, or rather, belief in supernatural agents of all kinds is natural (whether it's God, gods, fate, destiny, the basic underlying psychology is the same). Jesse Bering explains the evolutionary psychology of why we tend to have these beliefs: http://meaningandtruth.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/the-god-instinct/ But the thing is, different people can believe to different degrees. It depends on how their individual brain works. Some people like you can see God in nature and so on very easily, while others just have absolutely no sense of God existing. Others might tend to believe, but having thought it all through, are unable to accept that a benevolent God created such a harmful world full of sickness and natural disasters and so on. Their sense of logic prevents them from believing.
It's a bit like the way some people are born gay, or psychopathic, or any of these other things that would make someone fail to get into heaven. Some people are born less inclined to believe in the supernatural. Belief or lack of belief isn't really a choice, everyone just believes what seems true to them. This is why I have great difficulty with religions that say you have to believe in order to go to heaven. It doesn't seem fair to me.
Likewise those who are born into cultures that teach a belief in more than one god would be at a disadvantage.
I don't mean to be antagonistic and I'm happy you've found your path. I can see how your understanding of Islam is more universalistic than Christianity, and that you have solved the problem of having to believe that good people who worship God will go to hell just because they didn't follow the right book, because you don't need to believe that any more. I guess I just feel a little left out as an unbeliever! :(
From one Sarah to another ^_^:
ReplyDeleteFor the record, being gay doesn't prevent you from going to heaven. Thats a discussion that deserves its own post actually.
Psychopaths, people with legitimate mental illnesses, in which they cannot stop their behavior, cannot be punished for something they cant control. It is similar to children and people who are special needs. They aren't held accountable.
I've heard this argument before. it bugs me, b/c it makes humans out as helpless to control their own beliefs,which isnt true.
Heres the thing about non believers and polytheists, in Islam atleast:
If you were raised in an environment where belief in God, or even a solitary God , is seen as a negative thing and you NEVER have an opportunity to learn otherwise and investigate on your own, that is one thing. You cannot take advantage of an opportunity you were not given. A good example would be some communist countries or polytheists in out of the way locations.
BUT, if you HAVE had the opportunity to learn about God, all the different religions, were given opportunities and you just choose not to out of a sense of obstinacy or a particular 'logic' so that you refuse to investigate further: well, thats YOUR call.
Belief is indeed a choice. Many people believe different things at different points during their lives.You have to be open to the change though. You are not born a non-believer or believer. You are convinced one way or the other by your personal experience.You will find very few small children who have a defined or 'normal' idea of God, if they have not been coached by their parents already.
Why? B/c they don't know WHAT to believe in.They have no experience. This is very different from children who show attraction towards certain genders or other things,seemingly from the time they can communicate these feelings.
Theres no sense in thinking you're being 'left out'. You are the one making the decision, not anyone else.You have until you die to make this decision.Assuming you have the average life span, I think thats more than enough time to exhaust your options,no?^_^
If you feel that you cannot believe in God but you WANT to, I would advise you do further research.Search all paths for something which suits you, logically and spiritually. If you're of the opinion that you don't need to believe in God,and all these religions that require you to are being unfair, then why are you here?
I'm not trying to be mean. These are honest questions you should ask yourself.
In the end ,God will judge everyone, believer or not, based on their heart and their actions in life. It is up to God to tell you whether you will go to Heaven or Hell, not us.I suggest you take it up with Him. ^_^
If you're of the opinion that you don't need to believe in God,and all these religions that require you to are being unfair, then why are you here?
ReplyDeleteNot Sarah, but at a guess, I'd say it's because religion is fascinating as an anthropological study at the very least. For another, it's amazing what the human mind can do to the human body. Religion plays a big role in a lot of that. People can convince themselves of pretty much anything, if they want to badly enough. Religion is a great example of that. Mass self-hypnosis.
I really need to read the book Sarah mentioned, The Belief Instinct because it seems fascinating. So thanks for mentioning it, Sarah-1!
I don't agree with your analysis, either, that religion is pure choice and that if someone is presented with all the options and don't choose any religion then it's just their decision. As if they're saying, 'Well, I know one of these is right, but I am *choosing* to ignore that'. That's not what it is. It is being unconvinced by any of the 'evidence' that is presented. Should they just pick one at random on the off chance that eventually lying to themselves and others will make their 'belief' fact? It's sort of like telling someone who is gay that if they just get heterosexually married and start having het-sex, eventually the gay will disappear from them. Not so.
For the record, being gay doesn't prevent you from going to heaven. Thats a discussion that deserves its own post actually.
And will you be doing that post? Because according to all three Abrahamic faiths (at least) acting on homosexual desires (or being anything other than hetero- and gender-normative) is a straight shot to hell, unless you repent and admit that it was all evil and bad.
I have a couple of things I intend to take up with God, should I get the chance. It's bound to be an interesting conversation, and may, on it's own, get me booted from heaven, assuming I made it in the first place. :) *lol*
Let me rephrase: "why are you concerned what happens to atheists?"
ReplyDeleteReligion IS very interesting to study. I would imagine reading Heathers blog would be fun no matter what your faith.
For those Muslims who don't follow hadith, being gay is not such a cut and dry issue. There are plenty of people, and I am among them, who believe that the Quran does not actually forbid homosexuality.I would love to write a post on it but instead I will send the info on it to Heather. She is much quicker at these blog posts than me.lol
"This is why I have great difficulty with religions that say you have to believe in order to go to heaven. It doesn't seem fair to me."
Its like Heather said:
"It's not so much a matter of fair here, I think. If people can't or won't believe in God, then I doubt they worry much about what happens after death. Most people I know who deny the existence of God think we die and that's the end."
If you do not believe God or some higher power exists at all, then why *would* you be concerned about hell or other people thinking you're going there, since you don't think it exists in the first place? lol
"BUT, if you HAVE had the opportunity to learn about God, all the different religions, were given opportunities and you just choose not to *out of a sense of obstinacy* or a particular 'logic' so that you *refuse to investigate further*: well, thats YOUR call."
I am not talking about 'just picking one'.Thats ridiculous.lol^_^
I don't know if you've ever met anyone like this but I've met some seriously weird atheists. Its like they think its an insult to humankind to believe in God.That its so irrational and stupid that only a moron would believe it. Some people get so stuck in an idea that they feel they can't look anywhere else. Being like that and not opening up to all possibilities was what I was referring to, not just saying 'Well, I know one of these is right, but I am *choosing* to ignore that'. They fall into the 'wont' category Heather mentioned.
Other than that, if you're not convinced, then you're not convinced.Period. Not much you can do about that aside from keep looking. Either decide thats it or keep researching.Those are really the only options,eh?lol
Sarah, my issue is this: just as you find it hurtful if an atheist regards you as stupid for believing in God, I find it hurtful when believers regard me as obstinate, closed-minded, arrogant and so on for the simple reason that I drew the most honest conclusions I could from the evidence available to me. Unbelievers have feelings too, you know!
ReplyDeleteI have done an awful lot of searching and if it were possible to choose to believe, I would have become Muslim. I lost my marriage because I couldn't! So I know what I am saying when I say belief is not a choice. I was the least obstinate unbeliever you will ever find. I went into unbelief kicking and screaming.
On what basis do you *choose* to believe anyway? Do *you* choose to believe, meaning that you see no evidence or it makes no sense to you but you decided to believe anyway?
You keep waving away my question because it "shouldn't" concern me as an atheist. So let me ask instead whether *you* as a believer find it fair or compassionate that God condemns people to hell who didn't make the arbitrary choice of believing in him even though it doesn't make sense to them.
My interest in these discussions is because of my ongoing interest in religions and because I like to try to establish mutual understanding with believers. I think it makes for a better world if we can talk to each other and see where the other is coming from. If we don't, it remains easy for atheists to write religious people off as stupid and arrogant and religious people to write atheists off as... well, the same. :)
Let me rephrase: "why are you concerned what happens to atheists?"
ReplyDeleteBecause atheists are people too? It is irritating, to say the least, to have people tell you constantly that your inability to believe in an invisible creature who speaks to humanity only in riddles and allusions but who has the power to condemn you to eternal torment on a whim, condemns you to that torment automatically. Or to be told that you just haven't looked hard enough. As in Sarah-1's case, you have no idea how hard people have looked, how hard they've tried to make religion *work* and believe in it. Telling them to 'try harder' undermines every struggle that they've had.
For those Muslims who don't follow hadith, being gay is not such a cut and dry issue. There are plenty of people, and I am among them, who believe that the Quran does not actually forbid homosexuality.
I'll be interested to see Heather's post, when she gets to it. But, I question how you understand 4:16, which is commonly interpreted to speak of homosexual intercourse. More than that though, logically, the condemnation of anything other than heterosexual union is written into Islam. Who is permitted to marry under Islam? A man and a woman(en). Is sex outside of marriage a sin? Yes. The only way that homosexual couples can have a physical relationship is outside of the bonds of marriage according to Islam, which forces them to be sinning in order to be together in love. Their only options are to either never be joined with the person they love (which is no way to live), to never have physical affection which is a part of human make-up, or to marry a person they may not be physically attracted to, ever, so that their community does not condemn them and maybe they hope their homosexual attractions will go away?
I never said anything about fairness. I don't expect God or life to be fair. I learned that lesson in childhood.
If you do not believe God or some higher power exists at all, then why *would* you be concerned about hell or other people thinking you're going there, since you don't think it exists in the first place? lol
Because some people who assume that non-believers are going to hell take that as an excuse to abuse them emotionally, verbally and sometimes physically? If you view someone as less than you, less human than you, then certain actions become easier to do. It becomes easier and easier to regard them as 'less'.
I am not talking about 'just picking one'.Thats ridiculous.lol^_^
But if we choose to believe or choose not to believe, then that is what it boils down to. Pick one that seems the best. It might not be, but since it's your choice, what difference does it make?
I don't know if you've ever met anyone like this but I've met some seriously weird atheists. Its like they think its an insult to humankind to believe in God.That its so irrational and stupid that only a moron would believe it. Some people get so stuck in an idea that they feel they can't look anywhere else. Being like that and not opening up to all possibilities was what I was referring to, not just saying 'Well, I know one of these is right, but I am *choosing* to ignore that'. They fall into the 'wont' category Heather mentioned.
I've met atheists like that. I've also met believers like that. Who are insulted by the existence of people who believe differently, or who don't believe at all. Arrogance and stupidity are hardly exclusive to non-theists.
I question the idea that God could create each person, wire them specifically in the way that He does, and then for some of them say, 'Well, you're never going to be able to believe in things that you cannot prove, because I made you that way. But, because I made you that way, and I set up this rule here, you're going to Hell. So sorry. Sucks to be you. Ta.' That seems capricious and unworthy of divinity.
Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Are you guys reading things into my posts that I am not saying?
ReplyDelete"Sarah, my issue is this: just as you find it hurtful if an atheist regards you as stupid for believing in God, I find it hurtful when believers regard me as obstinate, closed-minded, arrogant and so on for the simple reason that I drew the most honest conclusions I could from the evidence available to me. Unbelievers have feelings too, you know!"
I did not call you arrogant. I said that in Islam atleast, God differentiates quite clearly between those who are arrogant in their disbelief and those who are honest. If people search and don't find, thats ok. Commendable even, since they're willing to be honest with themselves and not just 'pick one' or follow the faith of their parents despite their disbelief. They are entirely different and treated differently than those who reject belief from sheer pride.
"You keep waving away my question because it "shouldn't" concern me as an atheist. So let me ask instead whether *you* as a believer find it fair or compassionate that God condemns people to hell who didn't make the arbitrary choice of believing in him even though it doesn't make sense to them."
No ,I don't and I don't believe God does that either. See statement above.^
I am honestly curious. It would be like me wondering how Jesus felt after he was resurrected. I don't believe that he was- so why should I wonder about it? I'm not brushing you off, I legitimately want to know.lol It just seems odd to me to worry about something you don't think exists.
"My interest in these discussions is because of my ongoing interest in religions and because I like to try to establish mutual understanding with believers. I think it makes for a better world if we can talk to each other and see where the other is coming from. If we don't, it remains easy for atheists to write religious people off as stupid and arrogant and religious people to write atheists off as... well, the same. :) "
Well then bravo. We should all be here for that reason,no?
I don't know if you read my post and it came off as judgmental or what, but that was not my intended tone or idea. I will make sure to post things plainly in the future so that there is no chance of me being misunderstood.
Amber:
ReplyDelete"Because atheists are people too? It is irritating, to say the least, to have people tell you constantly that your inability to believe in an invisible creature who speaks to humanity only in riddles and allusions but who has the power to condemn you to eternal torment on a whim, condemns you to that torment automatically. Or to be told that you just haven't looked hard enough. As in Sarah-1's case, you have no idea how hard people have looked, how hard they've tried to make religion *work* and believe in it. Telling them to 'try harder' undermines every struggle that they've had."
I'm not saying to try harder. I'm saying you have to be open to the idea in the first place. See my comment to Sarah above talking about arrogant vs honest disbelievers.
"More than that though, logically, the condemnation of anything other than heterosexual union is written into Islam. "
Aside from a solitary verse about Lot which may or may not be about homosexuals to begin with, show me one place in the Quran where homosexuality is explicitly forbidden and where marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman.
The HADITH contain this information, but as I've already said elsewhere, they are heavily influenced by Jewish and Christian scriptures AND are not the word of God. Wouldn't you think that if homosexuality was such a big and horrible sin, God would have plainly forbidden it, just as He did other things in the Quran? God doesn't run out of words or forget to include things. If He had wanted to ban homosexuality ,He would have said so clearly.
Sex outside of marriage in Islam is indeed a sin, which is why, in light of the verse on Lot ,where men are trying to get around the prohibition of cheating on their wives by doing so with other men, SOME of us believe the only answer is to allow and promote gay marriage. God condemns infidelity again and again in the Quran. Not ONCE does he mention homosexuality except on this one occasion. He says that this group of people has done what no others before them have done. Do people think there were no gays before this?lol That doesnt make much sense ,does it?
It means they were the first to try to circumvent Gods laws by having sex with men instead of other women, knowing that their actions were wrong anyway. Obviously , it being with men doesnt make any difference. God condemns it anyway.
What people choose to do and say and follow outside of God's word in the Quran is irrelevant.There is nothing prohibiting gay people from getting married according to the Quran. What there IS,is Imams who do not follow Allahs word and refuse to perform nikkah for gay couples. Many people do not know that you do not even need an Imam. Any knowledgeable Muslim may perform the ceremony.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately in this country, that doesn't solve all your problems either since we don't allow gay marriage. Which I happen to think is a crock of utter bullshit. But, it does make your relationship Islamically valid and lawful in the eyes of God so, its better than nothing imo.
Allah says we are to be as garments for our spouses, a comfort and a cloak. He does not say what gender they have to be (many verses where it says wife could also be interpreted to mean spouse)and He would not condemn His followers to Hell for being the way He made them.
"Because some people who assume that non-believers are going to hell take that as an excuse to abuse them emotionally, verbally and sometimes physically? If you view someone as less than you, less human than you, then certain actions become easier to do. It becomes easier and easier to regard them as 'less'."
Well, those people deserve a good kick in the ass ,or possibly the head. See how they like it. You don't treat your fellow humans like that. The Quran says if you encounter a disbeliever or some other person who disagrees with you, not to argue needlessly but to bid them Peace and walk away.
Personally, I think sexual orientation should not impact your rights at all. It is entirely idiotic to say that people are not allowed to marry and live happily b/c of the the gender of the person they are attracted to.Isn't this country supposed to have atleast somewhat of a separation between church and state? Its not the kind of thing that is pleasing to hear come from any believers mouth- Muslim, Christian, Jewish or otherwise. And its certainly not the kind of thing you would expect our government to uphold. I thought we were capitalist- why is no one thinking of all the money to be made from fabulously beautiful gay weddings? ^_^
ReplyDeleteSarah(2), (For lack of a better appellation. :))
ReplyDeleteOkay. I see what you were trying to say. It wasn't coming through, at first. I love the net, but sometimes we lose nuances in the communication.
Hmmm. Okay, but, doesn't the Qur'an refer back to the previous revelations? One could argue that it mentions nothing about homosexuality (assuming that that single verse doesn't count) because it was already covered prior. The same reason it doesn't tell all the same stories that the OT contains. Or tells a variation of them, to 'correct' them.
Your perspective is certainly different, but I appreciate it! :)
Well, those people deserve a good kick in the ass ,or possibly the head. See how they like it. You don't treat your fellow humans like that.
LOL! Oh, I *like* you!
I'm very deeply for the separation of church and state. I don't believe that any religion should be allowed to dictate laws, which means that the religious definition of marriage is a different kettle of fish from the secular definition thereof. Sadly, I am still not queen of the world, or this wouldn't be a problem any longer.
Amber:
ReplyDeleteYou can call me Sarah O. My last name is Osterhage but its way too long for anyone to remember.
The idea is that the Quran is the ultimate source. Since its generally considered uncorrupted ,the idea is that you can use the Bible or Torah to confirm ideas that are already *in* the Quran, but not to correct things or include things not mentioned. You want to look at the Quran as its own source, not through Bible-colored glasses ,so to speak.lol If thats not clear, tell me and I'll reword it. I had to reread that bit myself.lol
God states that the Quran is complete and perfectly detailed. Nothing is left out or forgotten. If something as important as homosexuality isn't addressed, its b/c it doesn't need to be.It should be obvious to believers what they should do. That means that, like many other things in the Quran, we should use the principles and common sense given to us by God to create a solution that works for us. In this day and age, I believe that means legalized gay marriage.
I agree. Quran 2:256, There is no compulsion in religion. How then can we expect to govern a country or state ,which has citizens of many faiths, based on a solitary religions ideals? Gone are the days when Muslims lived together all in one city, and when Jews and Christians did the same. Its 2011 and we live in countries where every man of every faith resides. We can no longer assume our particular faith is entitled to make the laws. I am not for the United States operating under Christian ideas of law any more than I am for so-called Muslim countries operating under the bastardization of hadith,culture, bullshit and misinterpreted Quranic verses that has become 'Sharia'.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI didn't call you stupid either. As a matter of fact you seem to have thought through your beliefs quite sensibly.
"If people search and don't find, thats ok. Commendable even, since they're willing to be honest with themselves and not just 'pick one' or follow the faith of their parents despite their disbelief. They are entirely different and treated differently than those who reject belief from sheer pride."
This is really interesting, and new to me. I don't remember seeing such a distinction made in the Qur'an, do you have any references to support this? I remember the Qur'an to be rather scathing towards unbelievers, but I don't remember different categories of unbeliever.
It still doesn't make sense to me that God is so upset about people not believing in him. If it is purely about obstinacy and pride, what about believers who are obstinate and proud about their faith? Let's face it, "holding fast to the rope of Allah" or keeping the faith even when doubts come up, is actively encouraged! Yet if an unbeliever refuses to question their world view, it is obstinacy.
My concern is that the Qur'an largely draws a stark division between believers and unbelievers, stereotyping unbelievers as proud and immoral. Additionally it condemns them to hell. This clearly influences Muslim attitudes towards nonbelievers. In your first comment response to me, you mentioned only (1) those who didn't have an opportunity to learn correct beliefs, and (2) those who were too obstinate (or "logical"?!) to believe. I similarly don't remember the Qur'an saying anything about informed, honest unbelievers who are committed to both reason and compassion (also known as "humanists"). It makes it very easy for believers to imagine that all unbelievers are obstinate and immoral, and the Qur'an even encourages treating them differently from believers. This is what worries me about religion. You're right, I shouldn't worry that I am going to hell, and I don't. But the fact that some people think I deserve hell is of great concern to me.
Well, if thats how you feel,then I don't think me taking the time to go through the mountain of verses ,explanations on context,etc. that would require, will change your mind much. It is always better to do ones own research anyway. Theres about a bazillion verses on disbelievers,idolators or rejectors, as you know and the only way to really get a feel for what the Quran is saying is to read all of them and their surrounding text. Remember, alot of those disbelievers mentioned are the Meccans specifically, they *were* somewhat immoral and arrogant.
ReplyDeletePride is a very unattractive and destructive trait in anyone, believer or not. It is in fact, the trait that sent Iblis to Hell.
Believers who are prideful and obstinate have the same problems disbelievers of the same stripe do. They never get out of their box of experience,never learn anything new and never grow in their belief.I am of the belief people should never stop learning.^_^ I try to learn at least two new things every day in fact.lol^_^
Whats interesting is that the Quran actually tells believers to question it, test it, and to truly believe it when they are satisfied, which is generally the opposite from how most Muslims seem to operate these days unfortunately with their 'believe first, think later' bullcrap.
"In your first comment response to me, you mentioned only (1) those who didn't have an opportunity to learn correct beliefs, and (2) those who were too obstinate (or "logical"?!) to believe."
"Logical"? *facepalm* If you still don't understand what I was saying here, then I am sorry, there is not a thing I can do for you.
That only becomes an easy argument for people who have not read the Quran in its entirety or those who are reading the Quran *looking* for a justification for this attitude. Yes, it does say to not associate with disbelievers, to take them as guardians or protectors. But then it turns around and says that, with the exception of the disbelievers who drove them out of their homes or fought with them over Islam, the Muslims are supposed to treat them kindly and equitably.
"60:7 Perhaps God will grant compassion between you and those you consider enemies; and God is Capable. And God is Forgiving, Merciful.
60:8 God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.
60:9 But God does prohibit you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors."
My job is not to convince you. I am not a reference book or guide and it is not my job to make decisions for Allah about who is deserving of hell or heaven.
I am a Muslim. You are not.
To me is my way ,to you is yours and, with that, I am *done* arguing. I operate on a very short fuse with very little patience and I am getting tired of this.
If you are that concerned that people think you are hellbound, I would advise you not to be around those types.According to the mainstream Muslim community, Heather and I are hellbound too. Do you see us worrying about it?^_^
Ok, thats it. I'm done. I tried posting a response like 5 times. There is something wrong with blogspot lately.
ReplyDeleteBelieve what you want, I am not a reference book and there is no way in hell I'm retyping all of that.
I operate on a very short fuse and I'm starting to get pretty annoyed that things aren't posting correctly.SO here is a short, sweet and somewhat curt reply:
I am a Muslim, you are not. You don't have to like it or agree with it and I don't have to try to justify it or explain it to you. It is what it is.If you don't like it, ignore it or look elsewhere for an explanation. Mainstream Muslims think me, Heather and anyone else who rejects the hadith are doomed to the fiery pits with you.So do Jews and Christians. Big deal. *I'm* not concerned and I don't think anyone else should be either. There will always be these people who think they are the only ones going to Heaven.
To you is your way ,to me is mine.
Sarah,
DeleteThat comment somehow ended up in the "spam" folder. :/ Anyway, it's back now, and I love it.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteFortunately I got your earlier comment via the email notification, even if it didn't make it onto the page. :) I'm sorry that my questions have tried your patience. Of course you don't have to answer them or convince me, and I won't trouble you with any more. Peace.
Thank you.lol I am about to put my foot through my computer.lol Ask Heather: Patience is a virtue I hardly possess. I don't normally mind playing a million questions but when I've got other stuff to do and I keep having to repeat and retype and whatnot and run back and forth, it drives me batty.
ReplyDeleteI'm also a former Christian but I'm not Muslim. I think it's awesome how much you thought about it before you realized what the right spiritual path is for you. I did the same for a year until I decided what my spiritual path is. Good luck. I love your blog.
ReplyDeletei know this is a really old post, but I used to follow your blog ages back and only just caught up recently. It's fascinating to me, especially as my husband went the opposite way (was originally Christian then became Muslim) and also because i have never heard of Muslims not following hadith. There's always a certain amount of argument over which hadith to follow, what is sahih and a bit of pick-and-choose - but my understanding is that you reject all hadith? Do you believe MOhammed did not really say them, or are they just too unreliable?
ReplyDeleteI don't want to be rude or pushy, and I see there has always been a lot of debate, but well isn't there a certain amount of accepted orthodox dotrine with any religion, and isn't a lot of the stuff you reject "orthodox" islam? In which case, following such a different form of Islam can it still be called Islam?
Sorry that sounds a bit like a toungue twister! :)
In regards to the "why didn't God preserve the bible" bit, well there are many religious texts that have survived intact... the Quran not being the only one. So if perfect preservation is the hallmark of Gods truth then there are many. Also the Quran has not lasted exactly and unchanged (a whole other topic!) And the Bible has not been shown to have and substantial change either. But i sensed your issue was more the way it was compiled rather than changed afterward? I too struglled with this for quite some while. Without going into jewish canon, apocrypha and gnostic gopsels and the gospel, which I sure you know more than me about, suffice to say I found the evidence compelling that God's truth was there. the apocrypha where written within a different time frame to the OT and NT, as were the gnostic gospels, which were more like the Talmud - analysis and writings of the clergy more of a secondary source. The point is these things do not add to the message of the Bible. If you want to include them, fine. The point is the overall picture - I see God's complete and overarching story in the Bible. From beginning tpo the end we see again and again the story of man and God, our sin and our redemption. I don't see the OT and NT as conflicting - rather the the OT prepared the jewish people of what was to come, and reflected the same teachings of the NT.
Anyhoo, (getting off topic here!) I realised at some point that even if the Quran had been preserved word for word, letter for letter this merely meant it was a well preserved text (not unlike others) and not necessarily truth. And that our human nature is to focus on the letter of the law and forget the spirit of the law. Preserving the letter verbatim does not add anything - we will still argue over it's interpretation and we will still loose sight of the big picture! I guess that's where Islam went for me - it led me further and further into specifics until I lost sight of the bigger picture and felt so confused!
Hope that makes some sense... late night blogging and I think it's time to call it a night! Hope I didn't come across preachy and pushy - just interested in your experience and the similarities and differences to mine! :)
hey heather just read your post on hadith which answers a lot of my questions :)
ReplyDeletexx miss chatterbox
Miss Chatterbox,
ReplyDeleteGlad you caught back up with me? Just wanted to say "hi". Late night and I want to sleep, lol. But I may do an actual post to answer your questions later -- when my brain is working. : P